Yes, it may be extremely harmful to the speculators that trade 4 trillion dollars a day on currencies, purely on the basis that they are betting on currency values tomorrow. I understand that the "gold" sellers have sold 45 times as much gold as they actually hold. Banks, particularly "central banks", finance things with money that they do not have. I guess the cost of the WW 1 to the UK was pretty high. The US made a fortune supplying both sides, so had plenty of money at the time. Mind you,I don't know haw much of it was mythical, as virtually all of it is today.

Thanks and all good points. A link for more evidence.

Click to view link

I think the issue of speculation, market manipulation and excessive risk taking by traders can be solved after the fact (increasing risks for criminals by "crime does not pay") by realizing problematic (failed) trades ultimately resolves to:

One, or both of the "traders" has fraudulently misrepresented their position and ability to "cover their bets". By appearances and spin, they lost, but, not really.

Currently, this issue is "solved" by bailing out the parties with resources derived from further indepting / indenturing the public, innocent bystanders and collateral damage. Private profit, socialized loss, cumulative attrition costs thereof collapsing economies and civilizations. There is profit in being "too big to fail" and then, failing by rewarding insiders, hollowing out the enterprise using "decreed by man" "limited liability" corporate structures.

Of course, this large scale fraud needs to be de-legitimized and, the parties held to account as the criminals they are. Just another from many examples of the very costly collective survival consequences of "rule of corrupt man", rationalizing away the "rule of law":

Click to view link

DB: "Money is not just the root of all evil; it is the solution, too."

The correct quote this is based on is:

Root of all evil may refer to:

* 1 Money

* First Epistle to Timothy in the New Testament (1 Timothy 6:10), which contains the phrase, "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" (Often misquoted as 'Money is the root of all evil')
* Greed, one of the Seven Deadly Sins, the excessive love of money and other possessions
* Radix malorum est cupiditas, Latin for "Greed is the root of all evil"

Click to view link

Sloppy phraseology, feeding fundamental memes, harming your position.

You triggered a pet peeve. Things, including money, guns do not have volition (choice) and therefore are incapable of human action and therefore are morally neutral. The choices of individuals regarding how things are used as tools is very amenable to moral evaluation.

EG: Those who fraudulently misrepresent fiat currency (a thing) as "money" to achieve the fraud of printing presses running amok to attain title to real property while those holding the bag of fiat currency and financial derivatives are left holding worthless paper and computer entries. And, computer entries cannot even be uses for firewood, when hyperinflation strikes, as it must because states have destroyed productivity and will have to print for survival at the expense of whatever marks remain.

"When a gold standard or private money is instituted the PE are still the most powerful players, actually the only players. You seem to be ignoring this fact."

Quoted from above:

"If very wealthy gold holders can't print money, then they have to trade value for value like everyone else. That means that if they don't produce more than they consume, their gold stock piles will diminish. If they do produce more than they consume, then they are providing value for value, and I have no problem with them staying rich. Think about the old phrase "rags to riches to rags in 3 generations". What are the odds that extremely wealthy people can stay wealthy, when they've spent several generations living off of manipulation? I don't know what the odds are and I don't care. I personally will not waste the energy trying to "right the scales", as long as I can choose what money to use, and how to bank. If you want to "get justice", do so. Just bare the cost yourself, and don't try to socialize the cost on to me. Maybe you can start a business. I'm sure there are others hurt by the PE that would be willing to pay you, voluntarily, to bring the PE to justice."

So, how did I ignore the fact that the PE were still the most powerful players? People are more powerful than me now and they barely affect my day to day life.

"... actually the only players."

I own gold and silver. I know at least 10 people at my job, and 1 family member, who also own PM's. So, the PE are hardly the only players. I saw the problem in time to take action, and the greatest wealth transfer in the history of the world will partially benefit me, and those smart enough to listen to me. If you've spent more than a week on this site, then you should have bought PM's by now. That means you're also a player.

"Unimaginable wealth concentrated in the hands of a few is the crux of the problem."

Assertion, with no argument or evidence. Source? I'd say that the tool that allowed that unimaginable accumulation of wealth is the crux of the problem, since in argument form it came first.

"Unless this is addressed nothing will change."

Assertion, with no argument or evidence. Source? I just did a google search for multigenerational wealth management. None of the sites I saw recommended starting a central bank. If they don't start a central bank, then they have to trade value for value. If wealthy people trade value for value, then how can you have a problem with that? I made an argument above that you can privately seek justice against these very wealthy people, just don't coerce me into participating. Please respond to that argument.

"Public banking as an interim measure has the potential to break this control by transferring wealth to the middle classes, just like private banking transferred wealth to the PE in the past."

Assertion with no argument or evidence. Source? Have you heard of regulatory capture?

Source: Click to view link

Please explain how public banking will avoid regulatory capture.

"... transferring wealth to the middle classes,"

I'm middle class, yet I would prefer to grow wealthy without transferring wealth (also called stealing) from my rich friends.

When a gold standard or private money is instituted the PE are still the most powerful players, actually the only players. You seem to be ignoring this fact. Unimaginable wealth concentrated in the hands of a few is the crux of the problem. A wealth accumulated by deceit. Unless this is addressed nothing will change. Public banking as an intrim measure has the potential to break this control by transferring wealth to the middle classes, just like private banking transferred wealth to the PE in the past.

Oh Great Bell, you started out by talking about the CFTC regulating certain instruments. The metal-bugs ran with the ball. The ball being metal price suppression. Gary Gensler has been less than helpful on that issue. While there is lots of interest in PM prices, the MUCH larger question is the regulation of instruments.
GS managed to create an "index traded fund" for wheat. They drove the price up to 10 times normal. They drove the number of starving people up by 250 million.
Click to view link

The regulation of speculative instruments is far more important that the PM market.
I share the opinions of Warren Buffet and Paul Volker regarding derivatives. "instruments of mass destruction" and "totally worthless innovation"
They are fraudulent by their very nature. They are mountains of incestuous conflict of interest. They don't need to be regulated. They need to be expunged.
Warren Buffet unwound every one that he received.

The PM market will go naked one of these days. Everyone with a brain is pulling their funds out of un-allocated gold and putting it into allocated. That's why all the new storage is being built. The Chinese hold on to every ounce they produce rather than making big purchases. They don't want gold to go up until they have every bit they can scrounge up. It has been very quiet from Venezuela ever since they demanded to repatriate their gold. ????????????????

The questions about regulating instruments is FAR more important than PM. Reportedly, 5 U.S. banks hold 96% of $ 250 trillion in derivatives.
Click to view link
PM is small change.

A shout-out, if you please, to DB's recent unauthorized yet popular thread feedbacker meme of mind control. Click to view link

Dominant Subtext. Leviathan may play the part of the buffoon when it comes to its own Post Office, and it may not be able to move mountains (yet), but, by (DC god) George (Washington) it can and does move markets. Any market, any time, any place.

"But if it has to go then they definitely don't want public banking to replace it."

Source? You have a spy among the PE? If not, then this is a bald assertion. Thinking things through on my own, it seems to me that really rich people have an overwhelmingly strong incentive to buy politicians, if only to protect themselves from other wealthy people gaming the system. Politicians will control public banking. Rich people control politicians. So, how is public banking any kind of solution?

"They will survive in a gold standard and a private money environment. It will be a step back for the PE but only for a short time."

I have no problem with the PE surviving, as long as I can use whatever money I want, and can bank how I want. If you want to ensure that the PE don't survive, do so on your own dime. Do not try to socialize the cost on to me. If you can start a PE bounty hunter business, and can offer good prices, I might subscrive to your service, voluntarily.

Morality is really simple:

1. Criminal law: Don't hit people or take their stuff.
2. Civil law: Keep your promises.

So, given that, please explain to me what problem you have with speculation?

If very wealthy gold holders can't print money, then they have to trade value for value like everyone else. That means that if they don't produce more than they consume, their gold stock piles will diminish. If they do produce more than they consume, then they are providing value for value, and I have no problem with them staying rich. Think about the old phrase "rags to riches to rags in 3 generations". What are the odds that extremely wealthy people can stay wealthy, when they've spent several generations living off of manipulation? I don't know what the odds are and I don't care. I personally will not waste the energy trying to "right the scales", as long as I can choose what money to use, and how to bank. If you want to "get justice", do so. Just bare the cost yourself, and don't try to socialize the cost on to me. Maybe you can start a business. I'm sure there are others hurt by the PE that would be willing to pay you, voluntarily, to bring the PE to justice.

Silver certainly is the achille's heel of fantasy fiat.
There is no greater sustained manipulation to any other
market. Orchestrator in chief for JPM Blythe Masters.
Two sudden 30% dives in months, Drive by shootings
with the CFTC at the wheel.
Would you sit down at a poker game knowing the game and the ref were
bent?
Why play the silver paper markets when the stack is loaded
to use the week hands as succour for JPM et als get out of impossible short positions ?
Only one long term solution, Buy and Hold in Your Hand Silver.
Gratefully gather at these artificial low prices. Thank you JPM.

You are right, there is a diminishing pile of silver.
Coupled by increasing Industrial uses and demand.
A standard solar panel use 1/2oz of silver each, so I read.
Year to year a record 3 million + oz of Silver Eagles sold by the
US mint, all other world mints report records.
Then there are others like myself who buy as much scrap to antique
teapots to coins as my pockets can bare. As long as its scrap price or better. Every kilo taken of the market bites the manipulators.
Growing demand/declining supply. Hold through the storms of the market
melt down ahead.

The Honk Kong Bullion Exchange only this week are selling Gold in Yuan.
The Chinese starting with the thin edge of the wedge, Oil in Yuan next?

a ONE WORLD government has been predicted in the BIBLE, the current events are a prulude to the facism that is at our very door steps ... ... ... ...
the word of GOD say's "if my people will humble themselves an pray and seek my face an turn from there wicked ways I will hear from heaven an will heal there land."

Where are these massive positions? What incentive does an exchange have to permit positions in excess of capital requirements? Do you all realize these contracts are ZERO SUM contracts?

Reply from The Daily Bell

Huh, you talkin' to us?

It would be interesting to know just how long folks anywhere would buy tickets to watch their favorite sport if rules and regulation were not enforced equally for BOTH sides. The CFTC is like a referee throwing a very late flag, after the game is over. When there's no one left to lie-to and steal-from, the financial sociopaths will extinguish themselves. But what a gawd-awful wait until that time.

With all due respect DS, if you truly believe that the metals markets cannot be cornered then you have simply not been following the daily "slam-downs" of both gold and silver by the so-called "12 or under not-for-profit entities" with J.P. Morgan leading the pack in a massive shorting of the markets. There has been irrefutable testimony given to the CFTC by a significant number of investors that the metals markets are indeed "gamed" by the banking cartel.
The markets are NOT free at this point, which is the very point that the CFTC is all-too-slowly addressing.

As for China, the main reason that they have not "poured their yuan" into gold is that they have no reason to wish to crash the market of their principle export country. They have continuously added gold to their mix of investments in a judicious manner, and their "early buys" have indeed risen considerably in value ... . certainly more than the return on the U.S. Treasuries they have been purchasing to help keep the U.S. economy afloat.

And finally, to say that currencies trading at spot allow governments to manipulate wealth makes no sense at all. The spot price, if it is allowed to be set properly, is the result of price discovery in the marketplace on an Ask and Bid basis. The problem is when there is outright behind-the-scenes manipulation of that process, such as High Speed Computer Trading and massive positions either long or short by one entity. It is THIS that market participants wish the CFTC to control in order to create a level playing field for all concerned.

Reply from The Daily Bell

With all due respect DS, if you truly believe that the metals markets cannot be cornered then you have simply not been following the daily "slam-downs" of both gold and silver by the so-called "12 or under not-for-profit entities"

We never wrote the market couldn't be cornered, just that the current financial system presents us with a false narrative and an impossible choice - either use the CFTC to "regulate" the elite manipulations or defend the system as it is, with all its ruinous speculation and monetary inflation.

Speculaters are necessary in free trade. If you are a producer of corn and want to sell to hedge some of your risks you need a liquid market and speculaters provide that. Now if we could end central banking and the piles of cash that it provides to the big banks I don't think we would even need to discuss position limits.

The biggest problem with the totally captured and corrupt CFTC is that the fraud is right before their eyes re the naked shorting of the metals without a requirement to hold them. In the month of May alone, the daily positions taken on the short side, when totalled, exceeded many years of silver production; an impossibility that was out there for all to see. Position limits actually mean squat. Silver is the achille's heel of the fiat debt enslavement policies of the banking cartel. The CME is also part of the criminal enterprise in imposing margin requirements. The silver price is manipulated down consistantly in thinly traded AH markets with no volatility, and yet margin limits are raised many times to discourage investment by traders. But the CME does not touch margin limits for corn, coffee, cotton, and others when their volatility goes nuts. Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm. It's all about protecting the illusion of the USD as the world's safest haven; nothing more, nothing less.

With silver, the elites are heading for self destruction. The scarcity cliff is dead ahead. What they don't want you to know is that silver, most probably, may disappear from the planet within 20 years. There are no large stockpiles left; over 90% of silver ever mined has been lost forever.

Where is the unregulated capitalism ??

Dominant Social Theme:

Unregulated capitalism is a Bad Thing. Look what it has done to us.