News & Analysis
Eminent Scholar: EU Will Survive, not Countries
The Emperor of Vanished Kingdoms ... Here's a thought. What if the euro survives the present economic crisis but the European Union—or even the United Kingdom—doesn't? It's the kind of question that comes to mind when you talk to Norman Davies, Britain's pre-eminent historian of Europe. From where he sits, Europe's problem is one of failed governance. "It all started, I guess, in the 1990s, with the Yugoslav wars and the inability of the Europeans to do anything basic about a war in their backyard." ... The Emperor of Vanished Kingdoms ... Europe's pre-eminent historian says all nations eventually end—even the United Kingdom, and perhaps America. And that inability, Mr. Davies says, stems from a fatal flaw in the way Europe approached the grand project of knitting its member nations into a union. "I now feel that the thing that is being proved wrong is what some people call the 'gradualist fallacy'—that . . . you drive European integration forward by economic means," he says. "And it's just wrong." – Wall Street Journal
Dominant Social Theme: Empires die, but in the case of the EU it will be the countries.
Free-Market Analysis: Say what? The EU's "problem" is that the top Eurocrats are not dictatorial enough? The EU needs MORE governance?
Heck, from what we know, the top EU honchos have yet to have their "empire" officially audited even once in the past decade or so. That's right. Accountants refuse to sign off on the numbers, so obviously "cooked" they are.
This fellow, from our point of view, is surely enunciating a kind of elite dominant social theme, that the Anglosphere with its Jewish, Vatican and corporate components has in mind ensuring the historical record justifies a LARGER EU. Here's some more from the article:
Does the author of "Vanished Kingdoms" think that Europe itself is about to become a vanished kingdom? Mr. Davies is amused that his scholarly book on arcane dead states has suddenly become so topical. But he's not sure the European Union (EU), formally established by the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, or even the euro zone, established six years later, quite fits the theme.
"I think the basic argument—that [European countries] would be much weaker on their own rather than acting together—will assert itself," he says. "Obviously as long as they can survive by not surrendering their national interests and control of their own affairs, they will do. They're going to be driven to it at the last minute, I think." ...
So far, what Mr. Davies sees as the real issue—governance—has remained unaddressed. "They're talking about the nitty-gritty of the euro-zone crisis and firewalls and bailouts and central bank funds and all that sort of thing," he says. "They're not really going to the root of why it's all gone wrong."
After World War II, Europeans set about forming a union along three axes: politics, defense and economics. Britain quickly rejected political union, however, and soon enough NATO came along to become the only defense union Western Europe needed. An economic union—the European Economic Community, established in 1957—was the only remaining pillar of integration left to pursue.
But the early, unexpected success of the single market made policy makers cocky, Mr. Davies says. They forgot to answer important questions about EU governance—that little matter of whether Europe would need a more integrated political union before it could have a currency union, for instance.
Says Mr. Davies: "This is no way to run the European Union. It's only happening because of the absence of any proper organs for dealing with these sorts of problems."
Ah, you see? What Europe needs is MORE proper organs. More corruption. More authoritarianism. More directives from the top down on how many fish people can catch and how much carbon dioxide they can breathe before they're fined.
All we can figure is that Davies doesn't have any children or doesn't plan on having any, given what the elites are trying to do to this weary world with their fear-based promotions, planned depressions and endless warring.
Alternatively, he may believe he and his family will always be part of the power elite for which he so obviously speaks. It certainly is a crazy view of history that Davies is presenting. He is postulating that in a time of extreme social stress, sociopolitical and economic facilities get BIGGER.
Funny, we never noticed that. But then again, we're not court historians. Davies has lots of degrees, no doubt. He's a big brain who teaches at a big university.
Our modest argument, which no doubt would be dismissed out of hand, is that the Internet Reformation is similar to its big brother – the initial Reformation that was, in our view, an outgrowth of the Gutenberg Press.
If one examines the post-Gutenberg Press history, one might well conclude that during these great "information revolutions" statist power structures tend to DEGRADE. There is a devolution of power, not an accrual of it.
Mr. Davies is an obvious contrarian! History shows us one thing and he sees another! Perhaps this explains why the book in its sixth printing. We can only assume that, as with most so many such "books," the elites themselves are likely organizing the buying campaign.
How, after all, did George Soros's psychotic tracts get published? Did you ever bump into ANYONE who read Hillary Clinton's thousand-page reminiscence? Or Bill Clinton's for that matter? Yet the Clintons' books, we are told, supposedly sold hundreds of thousands or even millions.
Even the interviewer apparently can't believe what he's hearing toward the end of his interview. In fact, Davies himself can't continue on with this argument. Here's the paragraph in question:
Would he regret the passing of the EU or the euro? This is where Mr. Davies's sensibilities as a historian rub against his personal sympathies as a European. He comes dangerously close to telling me that the European project can cheat the forces of history and economics. But he keeps his scholar's head. "People don't see very often their death coming. . . . Look at the French Revolution: The king of France was thinking in the 1780s, 'We're doing rather better than my father in the 1770s.'"
Conclusion: The idea that because people are terribly unhappy with the European Union as it is they will therefore seek to enlarge it and make it even more dictatorial seems a bit ... unusual, in our view. But, hey, we're not lucky enough to be "court historians."
Posted by samson on 02/28/12 06:20 PM
The EU will not survive in it's current membership. Western Central Banking
hypotheses is anathema to long term stability history. If the 5 year planning figures don't meet the test, no problem, no audit forthcoming. The "West"
is not unlike the Middle East, it also is made up of clans & tribes.
"They shall not cleave to one another".
Any time you attempt to bind together those of different cultures, religions,or lesser powers, you are ignoring history.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/28/12 02:59 PM
Good thoughts Ross. Still, some help is always useful.
Posted by speedygonzales on 02/28/12 12:05 PM
*GREEK POLICE SAY THEY WILL ARREST TROIKA FOR JEOPARDISING SURVIVAL OF GREEK PEOPLE AND UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY
*WILDCAT STRIKES AND SIT INS IN PROTEST AT NEW AUSTERITY MEASURES
*EU TRIES TO COMPEL ALL POLITICAL PARTIES TO SIGN UP BEFORE ELECTIONS: END OF DEMOCRACY
*Shock and consternation after German Finance Minister calls for Greece to postpone elections in April and install a technocratic government
*Greek President rejects aggressive German power grab over country; 'default better than a German pistol at head'
*Hopes grow that the Greek army will overthrow bankster puppet government in a coup, restore democracy and sound economy
*Former NATO General Harald Kujat threatens Greek military over putsch, warns Greeks to capitulate to Troika jackboot or face NATO Stormtroopers
*German government divided over Greek bankster bailout
*CSU leader Horst Seehofer calls for veto of Greek bailout
*German President Christian Wulff forced to resign to clear way for new bankster puppet after criticizing austerity without investment on recent trip to Italy
*Outrage at EU imperial overreach grows among German general public, who will have to foot the lion's share of the public sector bailout Ponzi scheme
*Economist Hans Werner Sinn calls for Greeks to be given support in reintroducing the Drachma
Click to view link
Click to view link
The government and the Troika are actually imposing a violent redistribution of income in favour of the richest. They destroy the weak, abolish the welfare state (health, education, social security and public utilities), and turn Greece into a new colony, governed by German Gauleiters. The Greek Debt Audit Campaign, together with other organisations, had in time denounced this raw class attack, that aims to sink society into misery, demolishing social rights achieved through decades of struggle.
Click to view link
As to stay honest with Ye, this sparked chain reaction and all PIIGS countries ask for Debt audit. So not just Ron Paul is lunatic and asks audit FED and Fort Knox.
Come straight forward. What is behind debt? Toxics and CDS. Same stuff as sparked mortgage crisis or Icelandic revolution. They simply try to hang it up on someone else's nose.But is possible it stays home. As ye C it is not game. There is military treat. Operation Gladio II, by NATO.
Apropo. As Ye say that behind OWS R elitx. Bad tounges say that behind OWS and Anonymous is Eric Prince and Blackwater. Those toungues say this is his crusade as he hates WS... Just reminder. Greex ain't catholix @ all. They R orthodox. And Ye remember what they do with those guys. Have ye ever heard about Jasenovac concentration camp?
Posted by rossbcan on 02/28/12 10:36 AM
DB: "seek to enlarge it and make it even more dictatorial seems a bit ... unusual"
addicts always seek "more of the hair of the dog that bit them", until they self destruct.
jist stay out of the crossfire, deprive them of addictive substances, or, if able "nudge them along".
Posted by rossbcan on 02/28/12 10:31 AM
"MORE proper organs"
They are organs, a collection of *ricks, t,p,d.
Posted by rossbcan on 02/28/12 10:21 AM
Why have a university (monopoly repository of "approved" knowlege) when we have a planetary library / civilization's memory in the internet where anyone can freely study and truthseek?
and, your degree is the "results you achieve" (meritocracy) as opposed to "blessing" by entrenched interests.
Posted by rossbcan on 02/28/12 10:16 AM
"Empires die, but in the case of the EU it will be the countries."
I get it:)
when the individuals of a community die, the communuties survive.
just gotta love this something from nothing "new math". The sum is NOT the "addition of components"
Posted by Trollsome on 02/28/12 08:25 AM
If there weren't these excellent sites that provide valuable information, along with the free exchange of ideas and opinions, then all of us carp would be swimming in the dark. I prefer the light. Light also has a tendency to make cockroaches scatter.
Posted by Abu Aardvark on 02/28/12 05:56 AM
"Osama bin Laden 'was in routine contact with Pakistan's spy agency' (... ) The disclosure was contained in e-mails from the private US security firm, Stratfor, which were published by WikiLeaks website on Monday after being obtained by the Anonymous hacking group."
Hats off to Pakistani Intel then! Channeling a man, dead for a decade, is not an easy thing to do. LOL.
All joking aside, it would seem the DB had it right from day one: WikiLeaks, apparently, is nothing more than limited hangout (disinfo) ops. And "Anonymous", at least with recent, significant moves, seems fishy, to say the least.
Posted by runderwo on 02/28/12 03:31 AM
More on throwing Pakistan under the bus:
Stratfor: Osama bin Laden 'was in routine contact with Pakistan's spy agency'
Click to view link
Osama bin Laden was in routine contact with several senior figures from Pakistan's military intelligence agency while in hiding in the country, according to a large cache of secret intelligence files.
The disclosure was contained in e-mails from the private US security firm, Stratfor, which were published by WikiLeaks website on Monday after being obtained by the Anonymous hacking group.
Stratfor provides analysis of world affairs to major corporations, military officials and government agencies and was once likened by an American business magazine to a "shadow CIA".
According to one of the e-mails, the firm was shown the information papers collected from bin Laden's Abbotabad compound after the US special forces attack last May that resulted in his death.
The e-mail, from a Stratfor analyst, suggested that up to 12 officials in Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency knew of the al-Qaeda leader's safe house.
The internal email did not name the Pakistani officials involved but said the US could use the information as a bargaining chip in post raid negotiations with Islamabad.
Posted by davidbruce on 02/27/12 10:23 PM
You can go kicking and screaming into the NWO or you can surrender. The program is the same one used to bring the thirteen colonies together to form the United States. Give up some individual sovereignty for the greater good, so what? Have a drink and a smoke, it is all an illusion anyway.
Posted by nithsdale on 02/27/12 10:02 PM
This was an oxymoronic exposition from the start... ... The European Union was fielded to destroy the old "countries" or nations signing on to it! The EU was following the path laid by the USA when it decided to weld thirteen, then any new states, into a federal union. The EU is going through the same testing procedures, failures and some successes the USA had to endure to get where we are at now!
Historian Davies is correct in his assumptions. A union requires structure, a constitution, and it is a long process to get it right and get it accepted.
That it took a backseat to economics is just a reflection of the crisis times we live in and again mirrors the American experience. We had to fight a Civil War to really establish the federal union but Europe hopes that won't be necessary.
With the world now being divided along continental regions, the unionist philosophy will grow. We will see the Asian model gradually evolve and not along your "anglosphere memes" but more along Islamic ones. The signs are there and the infiltration is almost complete. India cannot hold out against Islam since too many Islamites remained within its borders and the trade routes that China needs , especially across land, are controlled by them. China just five years ago gave Islam recogition that it withheld from all other religions because their Ughers maintain the trade routes.
Posted by taxesbyanyothername on 02/27/12 08:41 PM
Well DB, a University might not be a bad idea, if you leave out the Fabian stuff. If they loose their government fix, the withdrawal may kill off quite a few schools.
Posted by Danny B on 02/27/12 08:31 PM
Davies does a pretty good job for someone with blinders on. ALL previous political and economic policy was predicated on economic and population growth. European population growth isn't happening. Economic growth has only happened because of credit growth. That isn't going to go on for much longer.
The dream of European integration was the desire to stop warfare. Birth control took care of that. Mechanized farming and mining took care of that. Natural gas made it unnecessary to cut down forests. Aqueducts distributed water and took away a big cause of strife. Durable-goods production moved from craftsmen to mechanized factories. Western Europe wouldn't dream of having a war. It might interrupt the soccer season.
The Eurocrats scream for more efficiency. SIT down, drink your ouzo and RELAX.
There is no reason to kneel before the altar of efficiency.
Post-war Europe integrated at the speed that was more-or-less natural. Why force it?
If war is out of the question, there is NO justification for integration.
Defense is a crock of feces. The USSR collapsed and nobody invaded.
Can you think of anyone who would invade Western Europe?
It's the same BS. "They" argue for "defense". It always turns out to be offense that they have in mind.
Any desire for forced integration is just a frontal attack on individualism. They can't create the ant-nest society of any of the ants get uppity.
Posted by WD on 02/27/12 07:13 PM
Until you capture the university chairs you mock the 'court historians' for having, you are only peeing into the wind. Your ideas, though perfectly valid, are worthless unless the marketplace of ideas, which happens to be the universities, agrees. Until you establish your own London School of Economics equivalent your ideas will come to naught.
To affect change you must either enlist the active participation of the elite or overthrow elite power. Carping from the sidelines on the internet may fulfill your desire to express yourself but is going nowhere.
Reply from The Daily Bell
Ha, we have to start a Fabian University before we can speak out? (And yet you comment here regularly ...)
Mighty high standards you set ...
Posted by laceja on 02/27/12 05:04 PM
Worked, for a while, for Rome.