Exclusive Interview
Lost in a Yemen Jail! ... A DB Staffer Speaks About His Long, Strange Trip and the Secret Gulag America Has Built in the Middle East and Africa
Coming across the border of Yemen for some reason, a top Daily Bell gnome predictably (you really can't send them anywhere) attacked a senior Yemen official with gustatory intentions. The ravenous gnome was then taken into custody and remanded to the second-most secure jail in all of Yemen, a political jail complete with dungeons, blindfolds and hundreds of incarcerated supposed al Qaeda prisoners. Foolish gnome! President Saleh's police state was not created for his nutritional needs!
Daily Bell: We're going to treat this interview as if we don't know you or even, for the most part, what happened. So let's begin with the most important question. Are you really a gnome?
Gnomish Staffer: Some days it feels so.
Daily Bell: What the hell were you doing in Yemen?
Staffer: Crossing over the border in a smuggler's truck. They smuggle gas from Oman next door where it's cheaper.
Daily Bell: So this is a true story?
Staffer: You can make up your own mind about the gnome – but the jail part is true. All that I'm going to relate here is the truth as I saw it and recall it. I was held in Yemen in a political jail.
Daily Bell: Yes, you were incarcerated for a month ...
Staffer: Seemed longer.
Daily Bell: Where were you taken first?
Staffer: Near the Oman boarder. They questioned me at a secret location.
Daily Bell: Who were "they?"
Staffer: They were President Ali Abdullah Saleh's secret police. He has a network across the country along with extensive security infrastructure. It includes secret police stations, jails and of course, a truly national force of informers, watchers, police and secret security police.
Daily Bell: Sounds expensive.
Staffer: Well, that's the point. One might think Yemen is chaotic – and it is. But the security apparatus is functioning with precision.
Daily Bell: Who pays for such an expensive operation?
Staffer: The Americans must be paying for it in some way. It's an entirely professional operation.
Daily Bell: What did they want from you?
Staffer: Since I had come across the boarder incognito – a mistake I immediately admitted and apologized for – they believed the CIA or some such organization was sponsoring me as a spy. They were asking questions.
Daily Bell: Did you answer?
Staffer: They told me I would be under the authority of Yemen's laws and regulations. So, I was reluctant. I wanted to speak to the American Embassy first to find out the legality.
Daily Bell: You're not much for state representation. Did you find your situation ironic?
Staffer: Philosophically, I think government should get out of the way. But when you're sitting with six unshaven Yemen secret police in dirty robes going through your belongings and threatening you, you tend to want any edge you can get.
Daily Bell: What did they say when you wouldn't answer their questions?
Staffer: They said they were sending me to Saana to the political jail there and "God help you."
Daily Bell: Sounds grim. What did you want to do there, anyway?
Staffer: Well, I've visited numerous countries' capitals in the past two years. Caracas, Medellin, Panama City, Montevideo, Nairobi, Muscat and now Saana ... Traveling broadens the mind and DB has benefited considerably, in my view, from my journeys. Of course, in Yemen, I didn't see much after the first day except via a window of an SUV partially obscured by automatic rifles. After they questioned me at the border, I spent the night on a pallet in the local cell in handcuffs. They were going to make me sleep with my hands cuffed behind my back, but I managed to convince them to move the handcuffs to the front.
Daily Bell: Sounds uncomfortable.
Staffer: You try it. I managed to sleep. But that was when I went on a hunger strike. Not that they noticed, or not initially.
Daily Bell: So, off you went to Saana.
Staffer: Yes, one of the oldest and most intriguing cities in the world – with the old city itself built in the mouth of an inactive volcano.
Daily Bell: Wow, a real tourist spot.
Staffer: Funny thing, no one is visiting Yemen these days for the tourism. I didn't see much of Saana. From the plane, they took me directly to the political prison. I later found out there was one worse version but this one was pretty bad. I spent the night three floors down in a solitary jail cell. I refused food and water, which caused the guards much surprise.
Daily Bell: How were the guards generally?
Staffer: They were young men, very gaunt and just as oppressed as the prisoners in their own way. They were paid US$100 a month and locked into the prison every night, as I understand it. A lot of them choose to run away when they get the chance.
Daily Bell: Are they part of Saleh's army?
Staffer: Yes, some 500,000 strong but mostly conscripts. If there is a big challenge to Saleh, the soldiers will likely run away. Social stability is not one of Yemen's strong points at the moment.
Daily Bell: What happened the next morning?
Staffer: They moved me to a group dungeon with others.
Daily Bell: And who were they?
Staffer: Throughout my stay, I was with the most intensely spiritual young men I've ever had the privilege to meet. In Islam, you pray with your toes touching. There were no shoes allowed on the dingy carpets. The guards would lock you in and then you would stand up in a row toe to toe and the leader (by acclimation) would recite prayers. During Ramadan, the prayers might take up to an hour. In between, they would read the Koran, chanting to themselves. Some had memorized all or most of the Koran.
Daily Bell: They sound fanatical.
Staffer: No, not fanatical. They were the most generous youngsters you'd ever want to meet. Islam mandates that you share what you have, and they were literally giving me the shirts off their backs because I had been put into my cell without much in the way of clean clothing. They gave me toothpaste and soap and towels. They tried to give me food but I generally stayed on my little hunger strike for most of the month. I found it made the jail manager nervous. He was always trying to get the doctor to take my blood pressure. It was sort of funny, really. I told the doctor once that I had lost about 25 pounds and he translated it into kilograms and started to laugh. He didn't take it seriously. Others told me if I hadn't been an American, they wouldn't have cared at all. People go into comas there from hunger strikes and they just ignore them or pick them up, carry them to the hospital and force feed them. And there were other things I heard about. People who made too much noise were handcuffed and then tazered on their handcuffs – which causes comas as well. And other young people suspected of being al Qaeda were being hung from their hands and forced to stay awake for days at a time.
Daily Bell: How did they handle it?
Staffer: With the resignation of youth. And with religious conviction. There was nothing much to do in jail. They wouldn't let you have games or pens or paper. So, you read the Koran and prayed.
Daily Bell: Did you read the Koran?
Staffer: It was in Arabic, but I had many good conversations about the Koran and Islam. I was intensely moved by these young people, some of them only 18 or 19, who had been captured and taken to this prison to be interrogated by the Americans who were deciding who is al Qaeda and who is not.
Daily Bell: Did the Americans know about the torture and all the rest?
Staffer: I cannot imagine they did not.
Daily Bell: Did they condone it?
Staffer: The Americans were regular questioners of inmates at that jail. And others as well.
Daily Bell: They were part of the process?
Staffer: They seemed to be, from what I heard.
Daily Bell: So there is an al Qaeda?
Staffer: There is a Jihadist movement, which is more than I was prepared to admit when I went to Yemen. But something is building in the Middle East – assiduously fanned by the West, I might add. It was reconceived by Osama bin Laden, though in my mind he was certainly a CIA-affiliated asset.
Daily Bell: Explain, please ...
Staffer: Well ... what are the chances that the son of the Bush family's main business contact in Saudi Arabia – a family that is worth billions – suddenly becomes a fanatical, fundamentalist Muslim and then supposedly blows up the World Trade Towers? Pretty coincidental, I'd say. And there are plenty of stories of bin Laden traveling to the US in the 1990s under the name of Tim Osman to recruit for his cause, a cause apparently sponsored by the CIA. After all, the CIA seemingly was responsible for aggregating the original so-called al Qaeda in the 1980s when they were recruiting young radicals to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. They collected a data base that they called the base – as in al Qaeda. It was a "list." The CIA seems obviously involved in the inception of al Qaeda, though they deny it strenuously.
Daily Bell: Were you surprised by the number and amount of al Qaeda you met?
Staffer: I was surprised by the signs hanging around the necks that said "al Qaeda." Just kidding. You would never know who was al Qaeda at that jail and who was not. A very few admitted to being al Qaeda. Most of these young men were simply impoverished, unlucky and deeply religious.
Daily Bell: What distinguishes al Qaeda from others?
Staffer: Apparently, those who might be considered Jihadists – I'm reluctant to use the term al Qaeda – are those who seek a return of the Caliphate to the Middle East. This means a return to the original Sunni Islam tenets of Mohammad, the Messenger. They will do this via a Sura. Six highly esteemed members of society will choose the nation's leader and he will be responsible for the new Muslim state. Anybody can come there of any religion to live and that person will not be oppressed in any way nor pressured to change his or her religion. Jews especially are highly esteemed in the Koran and set above Christians and even other Muslims.
Daily Bell: That's a surprising perspective.
Staffer: There's lots that is surprising about fundamentalist Islam. As we've argued at DB, the truth is not being told about what's going in the Middle East. For instance, Islam – Sunni Islam, anyway – is in many ways the least intrusive religion you could ever belong to. Taxes in the West are above 50 percent, all in all, for many people. Islam has almost no taxes, certainly not an income tax. Un-apostated islam has no central banking, either. Gold and silver are considered money – not fiat paper. The state in many ways basically leaves you alone, though Sharia law is to be administered by Islamic Courts appointed by the leader of the nation.
Daily Bell: Isn't Sharia law fairly barbaric?
Staffer: It has perhaps been applied in a barbaric way in modern times, but inherently it is not barbaric as it takes up to four male witnesses to get anything done. So, even if you are involved in adultery, you have to be caught in the act by four male Muslims of the appropriate age, and they have to be willing to stand up in an Islamic Court and bear witness to the transgression. And if any one of them has only seen you, say, getting dressed in the bedroom rather than being caught in the act, then that testimony doesn't count. So the standard of proof to apply the more significant parts of Sharia law come with an immensely high standard.
Daily Bell: What's the point then?
Staffer: Well, the punishments – lashings and stonings – are fairly significant. They are intended to scare people more than they are intended to be applied, or so people told me. The threat is supposed to keep people in line. But the real threat is religious. Allah knows all of your transgressions and keeps the book of your life. If you are not a good Muslim, you can experience hell fire. An apostate may never go to Heaven with all of its delights.
Daily Bell: What is an apostate?
Staffer: The Jihadists would argue that all of the modern Middle East regimes are apostated – that is, none of them are applying Islam as it ought to be applied. There is not therefore a single Muslim state in the world. Those who believe in a return to the original message of Mohammed want to establish an Islamic state as Israel established a Jewish one.
Daily Bell: But they want to do so violently?
Staffer: Strangely enough, the fundamentalists have been trying to make peace with America for years. In Yemen, there have apparently been numerous suggestions of ceasefires, etc., but the Americans always turn them down.
Daily Bell: You know this for a fact?
Staffer: I was told this independently on numerous occasions.
Daily Bell: What's the alternative?
Staffer: Well, the alternative is a kind of war. In Abyan Province in the South of Yemen, the Americans are shelling certain urban areas on a daily basis – places where rebellious tribesmen and al Qaeda are said to be. They are sending in Saudi and American planes as well, and at night they are apparently sending in SEALS with night-fighting equipment. This is a significant illegal action. America apparently has numerous troops on the ground on a nightly basis – and yet you read nothing about this is the mainstream press. America is very far gone now, from a truth-telling standpoint. Almost everything reported in the mainstream press in America and even the West is a lie of some sort, or at least a fudge. The purpose is always the same – to promote world government. In fact, the more the Internet tells the truth, the more the mainstream press does not. It's as if the elite banking families that run the world are trying to counteract the truth with lies and distortions.
Daily Bell: Shouldn't Congress pass some sort of resolution if the Pentagon is sending troops into harm's way in Yemen?
Staffer: You would think so. My theory is that with all the wiretapping and general intimidation down in Washington, it takes a very strong Congressman to stand up and speak the truth about anything. And many Congressmen are likely sociopaths of some sort anyway, ones who worked to get elected to line their pockets and not to serve their constituents – as if anything in Washington could be construed as "service."
Daily Bell: Back to the Yemen strife. What does America hope to accomplish?
Staffer: America and the Saudis want to damp down the fundamentalist movement in Yemen, though in my view it's one that the Western intelligence agencies bolstered in the first place.
Daily Bell: Why would they do such a thing?
Staffer: Obviously to take away more freedoms in the West. The target on this mostly phony war on terror, in my view, is the West and the middle class. The elites have been after middle class freedoms for over a century. With the war on terror, they have has a reason to escalate considerably. The Patriot Act, with all of its reductions in what was left of freedom in the US, was written before 9/11. During its signing they had the military patrolling the corridors of Congress with guns. Congressmen were intimidated. The situation in America and the West has gotten no better since then. The great families want world government and they are willing to remove any freedoms they need to in order to get it.
Daily Bell: So the war on terror has little to do with al Qaeda?
Staffer: In the prison I was in, people told me over and over that America and Yemen were actually producing radicalized young men with their incarceration policies.
Daily Bell: How did that work?
Staffer: I personally met only one man who claimed to be a legitimate member of al Qaeda in a jail that supposedly was chock full of al Qaeda. The rest were young men, mostly, who had the misfortune of holding somewhat fundamentalist, or at least enthusiastic, views about Islam.
Daily Bell: Thought crimes, in other words.
Staffer: Sure. Some examples. A shopkeeper from Kenya who was taken prisoner some six months ago for speaking to someone who held fundamentalist views 17 years before. He was put in an even worse prison than the one I was in. The worst prison in Yemen, where all the hard-core Jihadists are supposedly locked up. He said it consisted of single, individual cells – it was dungeonlike, in other words – and that you were not let out even to go to the bathroom except occasionally. He said the primary entertainment consisted of sitting on a ratty mattress watching your urine pool in front of you. After several months of this, he was moved to the prison where I was. By then he'd developed severe high blood pressure. It was aggravated by the interrogations. He said he was always being dragged in front of Americans from the embassy and that his questioners included one Asian man, apparently from the CIA, who was always shouting at him that he would spend the rest of his life in prison if he didn't reveal information that he knew. The trouble was that he was only a shopkeeper and didn't know anything. His last significant Islamic conversation occurred 17 years ago. He was desperate to get out because he had a business and a family and his business was in ruins after nine months.
Daily Bell: Why didn't they let him go?
Staffer: Well, this is the sad part. The entire political prison system in Yemen is built on the idea that there are many al Qaeda who need to be identified. Thus, the Americans may pay a bounty for such people – of one sort or another – and the Yemeni authorities are glad to oblige by fueling the charade with innocent people.
Daily Bell: Any other examples?
Staffer: Tons. There was a young Nigerian there with a two wives who had studied at an Islamic center that had been shut down. He himself had no connections to fundamentalist Islam, but when he came to pick up his passports – which the jail had been holding – they arrested him and he'd been there about three months when I met him.
Daily Bell: Others?
Staffer: Two brothers I spent time with, both from Iraq and Yemen. The one brother had gone rabbit hunting with a fellow who expressed some fundamentalist views. The fundamentalist was arrested, though he later escaped. But he mentioned the brother's name and the brother was picked up and incarcerated. He was an engineer. Later his brother was picked up. His brother was a schoolteacher. Neither apparently had a history of Jihadist associations. But they were eventually sentenced to ten years apiece by the Yemen courts.
Daily Bell: Didn't they have representation?
Staffer: Perhaps. Who knows? It doesn't matter much. There are no real laws in Yemen. There is no burden of proof. You can be picked up and interrogated and if you have the wrong associations, for whatever reason, you can be held for years without a trial. This is happening in Saudi Arabia, too, where they will now pick you up on hearsay and then arrest your father and brothers as well – on general principles. The Saudi jails are very nice, I hear, much nicer then the Yemen ones, with clean carpets, TVs on the walls and all the food you can eat. But the end result is even worse. The Saudis will hold you up to five years or more without a trial. There were some Yemenis that had just been released into Yemeni custody and I spoke to them. The Saudis were actually willing to hold them longer but their families came up after five years and made a big fuss, protesting outside of the jail. The Saudis finally let them go.
Daily Bell: Sounds horrible despite the "comforts."
Staffer: It is entirely evil. We're gradually returning to the era of Star Chambers and guilty until proven innocent. What makes it more evil in my view is that the West – specifically America – is behind it. The Americans told the Kenyan shopkeeper – or so he told me – that they had numerous jails all over the Middle East and Africa that they controlled and that there was no escape for him. If he was released and returned to Kenya he might find himself in a Kenyan political jail soon enough, also controlled by America.
Daily Bell: Weren't the CIA and Pentagon pressured to stop building these kinds of jails?
Staffer: You mean rendition centers? That's what they are. They are places where you have no rights and all judicial systems are suspended. That America still operates them and is still building them is symptomatic of how far the rot has spread. They just built one in Somalia. The American military-industrial complex is entirely out of control. It is only a matter of time before what it is visiting on other countries is visited on America as well. Americans are naïve if they think they can duck their heads into the sand and avoid the sight of what is undoubtedly headed their way. These sorts of profoundly anti-freedom policies are no accident. They are part and parcel of the way those at the top of the American military and intelligence establishment actually think.
Daily Bell: Rendition is supposed to be a thing of the past.
Staffer: I've been thinking about that. In Yemen, anyway, the Americans are hiding behind Yemeni so-called justice. Even the two nice people at the American Embassy who came to see me – and I have thanked them several times for the work they did on my behalf – were convinced that they could not interfere with the Yemen judicial system. I voiced my opinion on this several times to them. The Americans are basically running Yemen, not the Yemenis, I insisted.
Daily Bell: Did they respond?
Staffer: Actually, no. They just switched the subject. Or stared. It's not an issue that invites rational discussion.
Daily Bell: How many times did you see them?
Staffer: Only twice for about an hour altogether in about a month's time. They said they were working behind the scenes and I believe them. I got out in a month. Some others are still waiting to leave after years – and these individuals are the ones that have been told they will be going. I was lucky. Also, I was from America and that helped enormously. Saleh's entire government is scared of Americans from what I can tell.
Daily Bell: Saleh's not there, though.
Staffer: Saleh was blown up, perhaps by the Americans, and now he's in Saudi Arabia and who knows if he is coming back. The Saudis communicate what they wish strategically and then the Americans decide whether or not to implement it. That's how it appears to work.
Daily Bell: Do you have any proof the Americans are running Yemen?
Staffer: There was one fellow I spoke to – or at least heard about from several others – who was called 'the Bedouin.' He was asked by Saleh five years ago to make peace with the fundamentalists. One of his brothers apparently had something to do with blowing up the Hood. Anyway, he had significant contacts. He started to reach out to about five fundamentalist leaders – all dead now – and then the CIA flew a fellow over from Washington, DC to speak to him.
Daily Bell: What did he say?
Staffer: He told the Bedouin that he could not make peace with the five fundamentalists he was speaking to. There were larger issues that had to be taken into account. Anyway, the Bedouin refused and the CIA man said he would have to stay in jail until he reconsidered. The Bedouin appealed to Saleh, and Saleh was extremely apologetic, as he should have been. But he told the Bedouin that there was nothing he could do. If the Americans wanted to remand the Bedouin to jail, off he would go. Years later, he's still in jail and still refusing to cooperate with the CIA. He has a TV in his cell as a consolation and can see visitors in the morning. He can also move about certain portions of the jail at will. But he's still a prisoner because he wouldn't cooperate with the CIA. The CiA told him, by the way, that they would build him up in the press and he would become a very big man, a hero, if he cooperated with them.
Daily Bell: Did he believe that?
Staffer: I don't know. But he is more than a little peeved at the Americans and at the CIA. The larger issue is the control that America asserts – not just in Yemen. I figured out finally this is going on all over the Middle East and Africa – the United Arab Emirates, Bharain, Oman, Kenya, Nigeria, Niger, now Libya. The Americans and NATO – the West, in other words, at the behest of the major Western banking families – have built a virtual Gulag throughout the region. They hide behind the local police as they do in Yemen and this provides them with deniability. Nonetheless, the Americans in particular have assiduously set up a rights-free Gulag of sorts. There are thousands, tens of thousands, of innocent young men being picked up in this dragnet every year who've done nothing wrong except perhaps to be enthusiastically spiritual and to focus closely on becoming good Muslims.
Daily Bell: This must be a costly endeavor, when you think about it.
Staffer: It is costly and it's just plain weird. The American taxpayer has footed the bill for this transcontinental Gulag and it runs into the billions, perhaps hundreds of billions, every year. It's scooping young, innocent men off the sidewalk and returning them years later as embittered enemies of the West. It's a virtual campaign to radicalize the youth of Islam and it's no coincidence, in my view. The great banking families want radical Islam. They want a war between East and West, at least a cold war if not a hot one. Again, it's part of building world government. The more chaos and hate that's being spread, the more you need the trans-national organizations such as the IMF, World Court and UN. The globalists' solutions have all been constructed. Now you just need enough problems to activate them.
Daily Bell: Do you think it will come to that?
Staffer: Well ... let's look at the realities. The dictators being deposed in the Middle East are all secular. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Ben Ali of Tunisia, Muammar Gaddafi of Libya – all of them are non-Islamic types. And what will come about now? Probably the Muslim Brotherhood in one way or another. The Brotherhood is apparently penetrated and to a degree controlled by the CIA. So you have the spectacle of the West actively deposing secularists in order to replace them with controllable Muslim entities. Of course, it won't be portrayed that way in the West. The Muslim Brotherhood will be painted as a radical sect that poses an immediate danger to the West.
Daily Bell: But it won't?
Staffer: Not really in my opinion. Also, the Islamist-type countries may be set against the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries – Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates. Jordan and Morocco just applied to the GCC. If America won't stand for yet another Middle East war, you can always have one by proxy. America and NATO will control both sides from afar. This is no idle hypothesis. I'm told you can find white papers written on this subject from several prestigious Middle Eastern think tanks. That's how they operate. They write down what's coming up in the next few years. That way they can't be accused of conspiracy. If something happens, it seems more or less predictable because it HAS been predicted.
Daily Bell: OK, an interesting supposition anyway. But what about al Qaeda?
Staffer: Al Qaeda in Yemen, especially, provides us with an uncertain situation. At this point one could argue that al Qaeda has served its purpose. The West no longer wants a Jihadist movement when it can be replaced with something a good deal more controllable – the Muslim Brotherhood, which advocates democratic elections unlike al Qaeda. On the other hand, the form of Islam that al Qaeda advocates is growing in popularity in the Middle East. There are fundamentalists throughout Yemen, in numerous cities, and in Saudi Arabia as well, or so I was told. What the West may have created will not be easily put back to sleep. It is very hard to say, especially when it comes to Yemen, which has 30 unruly tribes and a Southern region that wants to secede.
Daily Bell: If you had to sum up this incident in your life how would you do it?
Staffer: I tend to be a fairly insular person. Writing for DB – especially as many articles and other kinds of writing as I do – I don't get out a lot even when I travel. I've experienced a great deal but mostly by accident on my travels. I certainly wouldn't have spent time in a Yemen jail at the expense of my writing if I could help it. I'm about to post two libertarian fiction books to Kindle and there are many other things going on my life. You, Anthony Wile, are to be congratulated for stepping up and actually raising the bar on the Bell's writing and analysis. But it would never have been my choice to stop writing for a month after having written every day for the past 45 years. I also want to thank you for working tirelessly to get me out. I know without your efforts I would still be there.
Daily Bell: We weren't going to leave you there.
Staffer: Well, thanks. I knew you were working hard on my behalf and it was very comforting. Having said that, my experience in the Yemen political prison opened my eyes more fully to the vastness of Western manipulations being perpetrated on the Middle East and actually the entire world. The charade of Muslim terrorism has morphed into an entire Gulag in which young men are being dragooned into what is essentially a work of fiction.
Daily Bell: You see it as a kind of directed history ...
Staffer: There is increasingly little doubt in my mind that for at least the past 100-200 years the world has experienced the fullness of directed history. No single event is what it seems; no explanation suffices for the wars, depressions and political and economic depredations that the world suffers from. Every disaster, every challenge, seems to bring world government closer. It's increasingly obvious. They're not even trying to hide it. Western military and intelligence agencies are fully behind these manipulations, in my view. The great banking families are directing them. The hope for the world, as we've pointed out time and again, is the Internet Reformation, for the truth-telling of the Internet is blowing up power elite memes as fast as they can be implemented.
Daily Bell: Did those in the prison see it this way as well, at least as concerning Islam and the war on terror?
Staffer: To a large degree, yes, though many strangely enough were convinced of the leadership of bin Laden, etc. This was confusing to me until I realized that those at the top of a controlled war needn't share their views with the rank and file. They go through the motions and those beneath tend to believe what they're told. The Middle East actually has a history of this sort of treachery going back to the Persian Hashshashin movement.
Daily Bell: Any final thoughts?
Staffer: Just that I was incredibly moved by the young people I met who were so generous and kind in the face of adversity. They named me Jonah after Jonah and the whale – the whale being the jail. This is the sort of metaphorical plane on which their minds worked. They knew nothing of rock and roll. They sing and chant the Koran, which is one of the great works of literature of all time. Thus, these young people were steeped in the metaphor of classical literature. Where their peers in the West were singing along to Britney Spears, these young people were speaking and thinking within the ambit of a much different perspective. It was like living among young men who saw the world through the eyes of, say, Shakespeare, a truly unusual experience, like living within a real-life anachronism. The nobility of their morality and the greatness of its expression was a kind of out-of-body experience for me. It also made me understand how so many young people can blow themselves up when facing an enemy. Between praying five times a day and generally being bathed in this resonant, classical expression of the Koran, one's socialization becomes entirely focused on the Islamic message. If Islam demands a blood sacrifice, such people will provide it. Their socialization will support it.
Daily Bell: It sounds quite intense. Before we let you go, we need to ask you how you were finally released.
Staffer: They called me out to have me take an inventory of my possessions. Usually they would blindfold you and handcuff you for interrogation purposes. But this time, they let me walk through the jail in a very relaxed way. That night they drove me to the airport in an SUV just the way I came in. A young man from the American Embassy was waiting there for me and filled me in on my release and where I was headed – thanks in large part to your efforts. Then I got on a plane and left Yemen behind.
Daily Bell: Did you unwind on the plane?
Staffer: I asked for a scotch.
Daily Bell: Did you get it?
Staffer: No. They weren't serving liquor.
Daily Bell: It's quite a story. Thanks for presenting it. Don't do it again.
Staffer: I didn't intend to do it the first time. However, I would like to dedicate this interview to the young men who were so kind to me and are unlawfully incarcerated in such jails throughout the Middle East and Africa, often apparently with American support – financial and otherwise. It should end; it must end.
Well, this has been quite a month. But our prodigal gnome has returned and he has quite a story to tell as you can see. We hope you enjoyed it – or were at least moved by it and the serious message that it conveyed.
The point being made is a profound one; what is being visited on the Middle East will not long be confined to that area. What is being done there will soon be visited on the West itself. There is no use fooling one's self about this.
The profound illegality and evil that is being visited on the Middle East and Africa will soon find a firm foothold in the West if its march is not radically slowed or even halted. The war on terror is being used as a way to erode Western freedoms, some of which go back centuries.
We hope the alternative 'Net press continues to raise the alarm about these and other such issues. There is no alternative. These issues must be raised and addressed, preferably on a daily basis. What is going on is wrong. No amount of justification can make it right.
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/12/11 03:18 AM
Do I "approve" of what's being done to the Qadiyaniat? That's a judgment that is not mine to make, I'm not God. My duty to God is to stop the physical fighting between any two groups of the faithful, of whatever religion or religions, when I have the ability to do that ~ which I haven't had on any measurable scale. I have never so much as threatened any Qadiyani muslims I have known and lived with, or any others, or for that matter anyone. Do I think that Islam, as established on the day that God said "Today have I completed My Favor on you and have written on you al-Islam," has been taken up from the eastern hemisphere? Yes, the history of that is recorded for over a thousand years.
"Nowhere in Islam does it say you must 'stop' (via violence or persecution) anyone departing from your faith - whatever form it may take - only the aim to persuade people to the right faith was permitted, by the prophet."
"Who alters his religion, kill him." Abu Bakr led the Ridda wars against those muslims "in authority among you" who told their people that Zakat was not part of the religion. The Abbasid Tyranny appointed judges who "interpreted" that hadith to mean "Who changes his religion, kill him" ~ meaning that those who left Islam were to be killed, not those who altered Islam ~ which is what the Abbasid did. They did that to preserve the Arab character of the empire ~ for an Arab to turn away from the Abbasid regime, or dispute anything the current emperor ("khalif") said, was considered treason, punishable by death ~ and Abu Hanifa was one of the early victims of that patently unlawful decree. But falsifying the religion by altering its mandates and prohibitions ~ which is what Ghulam Ahmad did, claiming the authority of "The Promised Messiah" and a prophet ~ is what led to the collapse of the Arab muslim empire and all of the successor empires of the Mongols all the way through to the Turks, and the ultimate disappearance of the muslim Ummah from the eastern hemisphere.
Muhammad was not Jesus. Islam is not Judaism, whether of Moses' pre-Messianic time or of the Messianic time (after Jesus) called "Christianity." The Sword of God was given to the Israelites for their defense. They abused it and joined it to the swords of the nations, and it was taken away from them by the Messiah. Messianic Judaism (the faithful of Jesus) has MINISTERIAL authority, it does not have sovereign authority ~ it ministers to the nations, it does not defend even itself, let alone the faithful of other religions or the nations. THAT is "Islam" for them, and it is THAT to which the Qur'an explicitly ~ and the muslims God describes in the Qur'an ~ call Christians. And it is the DEFENSE of the faithful of all religions to which the muslims are called.
Ghulam Ahmad cannot change that, whether other muslims are keeping their duty or failing it by abusing the Sword of God that He placed in our hands by His Message delivered by the Messenger.
"If you think the criminal violence against Ahmadis is good because they are being 'stopped' - shame on you."
If you think you're my mother, and able to instruct me on morality and righteousness, then perhaps you should remember your own behavior and judgmentalism instead of speculating about mine.
"None of it has stopped the Jamaat's (Ahmadiyyat's) progress, nor will it."
True. The falsity of the Qadiyaniyat will stop it, not unlawful persecution. When three hundred years have passed, and Ghulam Ahmad's delusionary prophecies have failed to transform the false paradise of the Masih ad-Dajjal into the real thing, it will shrink into an obscure cult locked in the Fire by its intellectual fantasies, with the eleventh, twenty-third, and 91st "Khalifat al-Masih" still wearing their gilded robes and ersatz crowns.
"Ahmadiyyat is the 73rd sect. All the rest have put aside their differences and are united against them - what does that tell you?"
It tells me that the paranoid schizophrenic aspect of your human nature (everyone has that attribute) has blossomed into Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia, causing you to imagine that the rest of the muslim world considers the followers of Ghulam Ahmad worth any attention at all. Ghulam Ahmad, my dear sister, was not able to save himself, let alone the world.
God maintains material expression of ALL of His Attributes in perfect, Merciful balance. He does not stop being The Just and The Compelling when He acts as The Loving and The Merciful. He says "Surely My Mercy overtakes My Wrath" ~ He does not say that His Mercy eradicates His Wrath, but only that it predominates. It is people who say such things as "God Is Love" and forget that He is The Loving AND The Generous AND The Requiter, not some intellectual abstract ideal that people take as a god besides Him, like "Justice" or "Peace" or "Wisdom" while He is The Just and The Restorer and The Wise, and merely clothes some of us with His Attributes to inspire others to develop a will to regain their humanity.
"It is evidenced by Quran and Hadith that all prophets are indeed sinless."
Quite the contrary, if you understand that Adam's "sin" was a very human error, written for him before he was created.
I admire your devotion and determination and tenacity ~ He is The Devoted and He is The Strong and The Determiner, nothing deflects Him from what He does. But you need to reconsider some of what you have concluded to be true, in the light of what Allah has shown you since then. Everyone needs to do that, including me. We are all journeying to Him, and He says that He shows us His Signs in ourselves and in the horizons. It's very easy to get lost on any journey when we don't read the Signs, and this journey is the most perilous without His direct Guidance at every step along the way.
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/12/11 03:17 AM
"Ankabut - Spider (strange or apt choice of name?)."
What other creature is at home in a web?
"When looking for the truth of any matter, it is imperative that one refers to reliable sources."
I have the Qadyani and Lahore party writings in my library ~ they've been there for forty years, and I've read ~ and repeatedly studied ~ them all. I have known Qadyanis and muslims from the Lahore party for over forty years, and have discussed with them most, if not all, of the allegations against the Qadiyaniat.
"Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claimed to be the Messiah prophesised in all the major faiths."
The only Messiah prophesied in the faiths of Abraham was Jesus. There is no other Messiah. The Talmud and the false Tradition of the pharisees of Jesus' time combine the prophecies of The Messiah with the prophecies of The Messenger of the Covenant, making all of them one false messiah ~ Paul, a pharisee, said that Jesus was this Talmudic messiah, and that he would return, in the flesh, to do what Jesus didn't do but that the actual Messenger of the Covenant did.
So "in all the major faiths" there is a "Promised Messiah" who came, did everything it was prophesied that he would do, and explicitly said that he had done everything he had been sent to do, and then returned to his Lord; and there is a "Promised Messiah" for whom the Jews and Christians and many muslims are waiting, who is actually the Messenger of the Covenant who came, did everything the Bible prophesies that he would do, and said so, and then returned to his Lord.
Which of these two did Ghulam Ahmad ~ and the Bab, and Bahai'ullah, Noble Drew 'Ali, Elijah Muhammad, Rashad Khalifa of Arizona, and many others from among the muslims ~ claim to be?
"As for the 'Lahori Party' they were a splinter group ... "
Interestingly enough, the "Ahmadiyya" international luminaries you mentioned earlier, who were appointed to high offices and prominent positions, were from the Lahore party, not the Qadiani party who claim that Ghulam Ahmad was "a Mujaddid, the Messiah, and Mahdi."
"If you believe in Muhammad (s.a.w) and Islam, was the prophecy of the Messiah a lie (God forbid)? "
You should ask that question of those who attributed those prophecies to Muhammad a hundred years after he had returned to his Lord. You should also note that they refer to Jesus himself, in the flesh, not someone "like him." And you should consider the clear statement of ALLAH in His Book that when someone is removed from this world, it is thereafter forbidden to him ~ which is applicable to Jesus just as it is to anyone else.
"(Not to mention the prophecy by the Holy Prophet of the solar and lunar eclipses that would be seen in the month of Ramadhan as a sign of the truth of the Messiah - fulfilled and recorded by observatories - fact)"
Solar and lunar eclipses in the same lunar month ~ including Ramadan ~ have been occurring regularly ever since the lunar calendar came into existence, which was before Adam was created.
"People claiming they are Muslims persecute women and children (Ahmadis) merely for believing in the Messiah."
They will be called to account for that, and their victims will benefit from any good the criminals have ever done. It is not evidence for anything else but that.
"(I lost a relative in the Lahore mosque attacks and another was wounded - over eighty were true martyrs ... "
Perhaps they were. That does not mean that what they believed was correct, only that they were killed for believing it.
"... is this the company you want to keep ... "
First, I will not be called to account for what they do, as you are purporting to do. I am free of what they do. Second, guilt by association requires actual association ~ implied association is a tool of the enemies of humanity to keep people alienated from each other and unable to reach reconciliation by correction and understanding. Third, those who are stirred up to violence by politicized mullahs who do not know their religion are not representative of muslims who are not of the Qadianiyat, as your question implies. Fourth, the events you describe are conclusive proof that the sword had not been sheathed between muslims, as Ghulam Ahmad said. Finally, my company for the last half-century has been the prophets and the friends of God, and the strangers. (See [a href=Click to view link]who the Messenger said they would be[/a].) Take note that Ghulam Ahmad is not described by those prophecies.
"Incorrect. He did not change 'the law'."
He most certainly did ~ he declared an end to jihad and he prohibited defensive armed struggle, which the Bible prophesied that Jesus would do ~ which Jesus did. That's why the British invaders of India loved him and elevated some of the Lahore party to prominence. You can't change history, Sister.
"... distorting the excellence of the tolerant and lovable Islam of Muhammad."
Looks like you need a few more years or decades of studying the Qur'an and the history of the millennial kingdom established among the Arabs. You appear to think that "Drive them out from where they sought to drive you out" and "Fighting is ordained for you, although you hate it," and the passages saying the faithful are defenders of the oppressed, and other such passages of the Qur'an relating to things that muslims may not "tolerate" BECAUSE we love those who do not love us, have been "abrogated" or something. And then you say that Ghulam Ahmad did not change the religion.
(Continued)
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Posted by Summer on 11/11/11 07:11 PM
There is a clear difference between human error and deliberate sin - it's not that complicated!
All prophets sought forgiveness/refuge from corruption to maintain their 'purity' so as not to err in future.
It is evidenced by Quran and Hadith that all prophets are indeed sinless.
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Posted by Summer on 11/11/11 06:57 PM
'... direct attack on Islam and the faithful of all religions that must be defeated by whatever it takes, whether by persuasion or war as may prove necessary.'
So you condone violence then, your statement is repugnant and shame on you not for approving of persecution but for distorting the excellence of the tolerant and lovable Islam of Muhammad. Here is what you approve of, how dare you call yourself a Muslim?
Click to view link
'But a muslim who falsifies Islam must be stopped ~ otherwise the muslim world degenerates into what we see in the eastern hemisphere'
False. This must be a new religion, Ankabutism? This statement alludes to ignorance and lack of understanding of the character of the Holy Prophet and his commitment to the principles of freedom conscience, although in your favour you have some knowledge - that of the Jihadist variety/mentality - this is what true Muslims should abhor. Nowhere in Islam does it say you must 'stop' (via violence or persecution) anyone departing from your faith - whatever form it may take - only the aim to persuade people to the right faith was permitted, by the prophet.
If you think the criminal violence against Ahmadis is good because they are being 'stopped' - shame on you. None of it has stopped the Jamaat's (Ahmadiyyat's) progress, nor will it. Now there are more members than ever, spread in over 200 countries with over 150 million Ahmadis, in just over a century, spreading the true message of Islam - Love for all Hatred for None . So carry on 'stopping' Ahmadiyyat and see how the patient will be rewarded with yet more gains. It is those who commit injustice - spreading lies and encouraging violence - displaying a complete lack of Takwa (fear of displeasing God), that will be become insignificant by a Hand that is truly unstoppable.
From hadith: The Children of Israel divided into 72 sects. My community will divide into 73 sects, and all of them will be in the Hellfire save one.' The people asked him: 'And which one will that be?' He replied: 'The one that follows what I and my Companions are upon right now.'
Prophecies have been fulfilled, 'the time' has passed, Ahmadiyyat is the 73rd sect. All the rest have put aside their differences and are united against them - what does that tell you?
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Posted by Summer on 11/11/11 06:55 PM
Ankabut - Spider (strange or apt choice of name?).
When looking for the truth of any matter, it is imperative that one refers to reliable sources.
Therefore, when one looks to examine the teachings of any faith or sect, one must refer to the original texts, founder's words and followers of that faith.
Click to view link
If I want to find out about Christianity, I will first go to a Christian and will use the principle of self-definition to make my judgement. Only then will I look at alternative sources from other faiths regarding Christianity. Not using the principle of self-definition will lead to confusion and prejudice.
Ankabut:
'Actually, Summer is writing about the Qadiani sect of the "Ahmadiyya Movement," based in Qadian, India, that calls Ghulam Ahmad a prophet on the basis of Ghulam Ahmad's initial claim to be the reincarnation of Jesus. The Ahmadi sect ~ based in Lahore, Pakistan ~ calls Ghulam Ahmad the "mujeddid" ("renewer") for the fourteenth century and denies that he ever made any claim to be a prophet, whether Jesus or a prophet "like" him.'
'What separates them from the rest of the world's muslims is that Ghulam Ahmad altered the religion for himself and his followers, and they follow him in that.'
'This is the case of Ghulam Ahmad, who fell prey to Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia'
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claimed to be the Messiah prophesised in all the major faiths. As I have mentioned earlier in the stream he is in 'the image of Jesus' in that he claimed to be similar to him (in mission and characteristics) - not a reincarnation - reincarnation has always been rejected by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community as an illogical philosophy (as by other Muslims).
The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community's founder was born in Qadian. The name 'Qadiyyani' is used as a distortion and slur. Ahmadiyyat refers to one of the names of Muhammad (s.a.w) and emphasizes allegiance to true Islam. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did not change Islam at all; in fact, he championed a true revival of Islam by adherence to the original and perfect faith as practised in the Sunna of the prophet - not the illiterate rants of Mullahs.
It is worth re-iterating that until this community came into being, the Quran was translated into only a handful of local languages such as Persian, Turkish etc. and the mullahs (of most sects) did not contribute anything to the Quran's propagation. The Ahmadiyya Muslim movement has, in its short lifespan, translated the Quran into more than 80 languages and established a missionary network covering the entire globe. Ahmadiyya Muslim missionaries have been at the forefront of Islamic propagation and the building of self-funded mosques throughout the world. The first mosques built in Europe by Muslims after the Moors in Spain were Ahmadiyya Muslim Mosques. Indeed, European colonialists who used pseudo-Christian missionaries to advance their territorial gains in the Indian Sub-continent and Africa were stopped in their tracks by the Ahmadiyya Muslim missionary activity which provided schools and hospitals to all regardless of creed or colour.
As for the 'Lahori Party' they were a splinter group (so diminished, perhaps one hundred of them exist and that's at a stretch) that succumbed to pressure from other Muslim sects to reject the prophet-hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (perhaps then they would be allowed into the real 'Muslim' club), claiming him to be merely a Mujaddid - a reformer (a lower rank than a Caliph and obviously a Prophet also) sent at the head of each century - which he was *but* far more significantly - he was also the Messiah and Mahdi - the prophet prophesised to come at *the* appointed time by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w).
It's a pity that many Muslims are tangled in webs of arguments that will never free them from the question: If you believe in Muhammad (s.a.w) and Islam, was the prophecy of the Messiah a lie (God forbid)?
Unfortunately, those consciously ignoring the fact that the 1400th century of Islam has come and gone, have no answer - they are under the influence of corrupt Mullahs who fear the loss of power and manipulate the masses into believing that Ahmadis have, inter alia, 'Dementia' but who is really deluded if these prophecies are correct? (Not to mention the prophecy by the Holy Prophet of the solar and lunar eclipses that would be seen in the month of Ramadhan as a sign of the truth of the Messiah - fulfilled and recorded by observatories - fact)
People claiming they are Muslims persecute women and children (Ahmadis) merely for believing in the Messiah. (I lost a relative in the Lahore mosque attacks and another was wounded - over eighty were true martyrs - killed at Friday prayers by crazed Mullah followers wielding Kalashnikovs and grenades) In school Ahmadis are mocked and ridiculed - they are forced to sit in separate sections, at work they are ostracised and dismissed, they are stopped from performing Hajj, they are unable to disseminate literature in various Arab countries, their homes are burnt to the ground, they are beaten to death - recently in Indonesia (the disgusting scene can be seen on youtube, with many happy at the sight), they are murdered by 'Muslims' merely for daring to say lailaha illalah (there is none worthy of worship except Allah) is this the company you want to keep, are these Muslims the followers of the incredible Holy Prophet who gave freedom of faith under his rule, even to Jews and Christians? None of this will stop the truth or frustrate Ahmadiyyat, they may do what they will, Ahmadis are ready to sacrifice their, wealth, children and lives for their faith.
'and claimed the authority to change the law (which he did), on the basis of his "interpretation" of verses of the Qur'an, certain hadith, and the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, all of which were obscure to him. "Changing the law" ~ that is, denying the law and falsifying it ~ is a capital crime in Judaism, and is a direct attack on Islam and the faithful of all religions that must be defeated by whatever it takes, whether by persuasion or war as may prove necessary.'
Incorrect. He did not change 'the law'. And Islamic scholars throughout the centuries have interpreted various Fiqh issues differently, hence why there are different schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad followed and sincerely adhered to the Quran and hadith (he wrote lengthy odes to the love of the Holy Prophets perfect character in Arabic). In fact, he was celebrated as a great defender of Islam (he received critical acclaim by his contemporaries for his master piece: Braheen i Ahmadiyyat. And received brilliant newspaper reviews for The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam) before he claimed prophet-hood; I wonder what suddenly changed? Furthermore, I see you make this accusation without an example - nice. I have come across many that think they are knowledgeable but have a complete lack of insight, honesty and have double standards in the application of the faith.
Continued...
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/11/11 08:26 AM
"She is a fairly voluble person!"
She's proselytizing. "The 'Second Messiah' opens the door to heaven." But the fish aren't biting, and there's someone here to debunk the sales pitch. The readers aren't the least bit interested in "religion" arguments ~ at most, a few might be curious where they see some common sense and rationality, but any "mystery" or utopian fantasy falls on deaf ears. There's nothing here for the Qadiyaniyat.
But she might be back. A century ago, real brotherhood and community were so absent from among the old world muslims that Ghulam Ahmad and his followers looked like the "real" muslims of the time. I have the English translations of the Qur'an from both the Lahore party (by Muhammad 'Ali, who was quite orthodox) and the Qadiani party ("Published under the auspices of [the] Third Successor of the Promised Messiah and Head of the Ahmadiyyah Movement in Islam"), and they're no worse than the "official" Saudi translation.
But that's the kind of "disputation" that turns people off, so that most readers "tune out" everything, including the rational common sense. Preachers and proselytizers make no headway when "religious differences" come into the picture.
Which makes sense ~ if those who might know the religion don't agree about what it is, how can those who know nothing about it learn about it from them?
Ghulam Ahmad's "messianic message" that the British should rule India without anti-colonial opposition was music to British ears, and it was insistently promoted by the British, which gave him a following. But to virtually all other muslims, then and now, his "Ahmadiyyah Movement in Islam" is just another slick trick of the British.
The next "prophet" from among the muslims was Noble Drew 'Ali, founder of "The Moorish Science Temple of America." The next after him was Elijah Muhammad, founder of the so-called "Nation of Islam" promoted by the American media to pull radical extremist Black Nationalists into Elijah's control and away from Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver and the Black Panther parties. Elijah was the last of the thirty such "prophets" that Muhammad told us, fourteen centuries ago, to expect ~ and like Ghulam's bunch, Elijah's "Nation" split into one party headed for orthodoxy and another party that still calls him "The Messenger."
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/11/11 04:25 AM
"Thanks for the many insights. Interesting and important. Maybe we will hear from Summer on this issue ... "
Perhaps. But don't hold your breath.
Reply from The Daily Bell
She is a fairly voluble person!
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/10/11 04:02 AM
Summer writes: "Islam gives all prophets great status, as ones who never committed any 'wrong' (sin is *intentional* wrongdoing)."
The Messenger did four things ~ intentionally ~ that Allah explicitly calls "wrong" in the Qur'an. Allah also corrected Dawud and Sulimon. And Yunus, in the belly of the fish, prayed "Surely I have been of the wrongdoers."
Perhaps you need to revisit your notions of "sinlessness."
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/10/11 03:21 AM
Omar writes: "You've never heard this view because it is from the Ahmadi sect, a sect completely disconnected from Islam, as the writer mentions."
Actually, Summer is writing about the Qadiani sect of the "Ahmadiyya Movement," based in Qadian, India, that calls Ghulam Ahmad a prophet on the basis of Ghulam Ahmad's initial claim to be the reincarnation of Jesus. The Ahmadi sect ~ based in Lahore, Pakistan ~ calls Ghulam Ahmad the "mujeddid" ("renewer") for the fourteenth century and denies that he ever made any claim to be a prophet, whether Jesus or a prophet "like" him.
Most muslims ~ including most muslim jurists ~ assert that these two sects (collectively called "Qadiyaniat") are not muslims and "are not part of Islam," but this is incorrect. They testify that there is but One God, the God of Abraham, and that Muhammad is His Messenger ~ and when they are called to account, they will be called as muslims. What separates them from the rest of the world's muslims is that Ghulam Ahmad altered the religion for himself and his followers, and they follow him in that.
The same thing was done by some tribal leaders after the death of the Messenger ~ they said that Zakat (the "dues" of wealth) was not part of the religion, but had been tribute paid to Muhammad as the head of state, and was no longer required since he had died.
Historical "scholarship" calls this "apostasy," to justify the murder of later apostates, but it was not that. They did not claim that they were no longer muslim, they said that they were muslim. They said ~ from a position of authority in Islam ~ that the religion was something that it was not. This is the case of Ghulam Ahmad, who fell prey to Messianic Apocalyptic Dementia
(see Click to view link )
and claimed the authority to change the law (which he did), on the basis of his "interpretation" of verses of the Qur'an, certain hadith, and the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, all of which were obscure to him. "Changing the law" ~ that is, denying the law and falsifying it ~ is a capital crime in Judaism, and is a direct attack on Islam and the faithful of all religions that must be defeated by whatever it takes, whether by persuasion or war as may prove necessary.
For a Denier or an adherent of another faith to falsify Islam is not actionable ~ muslims articulate the truth of Islam and the true banishes the false. But a muslim who falsifies Islam must be stopped ~ otherwise the muslim world degenerates into what we see in the eastern hemisphere, following the Abbasid Dynasty's falsifications of the faith and the law.
The Qadiyaniyat attract "those in whose hearts is a turning away" from the task of restoring their lost humanity that has been impaired by their lives in this world ~ that is, from Islam as it is preserved in the Qur'an (beneath fourteen centuries of historical accretions). Their likeness is in the Qur'an:
Q13:17. He sends a rain from the sky; and as valleys wash to their destiny the flood bears a rising foam. And from what they smelt in the fire to forge adornment and wares, a froth of its kind: that is how ALLAH coins the true and the vain. Then as for the scum, it passes uselessly; and as for what serves the people, it remains in the earth. That is how ALLAH strikes images.
The Qur'an and Islam are coming down on America like rain, flooding the land with knowledge of God and His Mercy. There is bound to be flotsam and jetsam as the world of darkness is washed away, and foam atop the flood.
The moral of this story? "Be wary of walking on the foam ~ it lacks substance; stay on solid ground and let the scum be washed away." There is nothing in creation more solid than the Qur'an.
Reply from The Daily Bell
Thanks for the many insights. Interesting and important. Maybe we will hear from Summer on this issue ...
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Posted by ankaboot on 11/09/11 09:56 PM
@howardbe:
"IN NO PLACE IN MY KORAN AE THE JEWS, OR CHRISTIANS FOR THAT MATTER, ESTEEMED. In fact, Christ is referred to as a false prophet. In my Koran, Jews are literally only good for killing."
You are not reading from an "authentic English" edition of the Qur'an. Jesus was a prophet, a messenger, and the Messiah, God's Word that He cast into Mary. The Qur'an most certainly does NOT refer to him "as a false prophet."
And the faithful of Moses and Jesus are revered and honored ~ even though many of them are mistaken about some things.
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Posted by lingoguy on 10/21/11 05:07 PM
Regarding Islam - There are always two sides to any story, and someone who gets the story from highly enthusiastic inmates is bound to pay a price for his ignorance. Despite our anger over elites of all countries, we must learn about Islam beyond the jail cell.
Ask the women about what these young men say and see if you think about Islam the same way. Islam is different things to Muslims - depending on which of the hadiths you believe to be genuine. But one thing is certain, it is not the tolerant religion you seem to agree it is.
Learn the truth and then you will gain my respect.
Reply from The Daily Bell
Right, a religion that encompasses 1.2 billion people, is the largest in the world and draws much of its heritage and belief structure from Christian texts is not a tolerant one. Which hadiths are you talking about, weak, strong, etc?
You are sure this particular DB reporter was simply overwhelmed by an experience with "highly enthusiastic inmates." What an insult. Some of these young men had been incarcerated without trial for three or four years or even five years.
As far as women go, people live within their cultures. Ask American or British women how they like working two dead-end jobs and sending their children off to daycare centers at the crack of dawn because the Western central banking economy is dysfunctional and is in the process of robbing an entire generation of an employment heritage. Tend to the speck in your own eye.
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Posted by Nanoo Visitor on 09/07/11 10:06 PM
Possible gnome sighting (sniffing a beer bottle?), picture just above the bottom of:
Click to view link
Reply from The Daily Bell
Pretty funny, thanks.
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Posted by amanfromMars on 09/04/11 10:54 AM
What is Rockefeller money funding now ... . to lead with something new and betatesting old systems' security protocols/exploiting possibilities with revised use of attractive vulnerabilities.
IARPA Virtual Reality ProgramMING?
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Posted by speedygonzales on 08/30/11 11:44 PM
Staffer: There is increasingly little doubt in my mind that for at least the past 100-200 years the world has experienced the fullness of directed history. No single event is what it seems; no explanation suffices for the wars, depressions and political and economic depredations that the world suffers from. Every disaster, every challenge, seems to bring world government closer. It's increasingly obvious. They're not even trying to hide it. Western military and intelligence agencies are fully behind these manipulations, in my view. The great banking families are directing them. The hope for the world, as we've pointed out time and again, is the Internet Reformation, for the truth-telling of the Internet is blowing up power elite memes as fast as they can be implemented.
Social theme: Education.
The real motivation behind the General Education Board, however, was perhaps best expressed in the Board's Occasional Letter No. 1, written by Gates:
In our dreams, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding bands. The present education conventions fade from their minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply.
The task we set before ourselves is very simple as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them to a perfectly ideal life just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops and on the farm.
The obvious elitist and racist approach (common to all eugenic and genetic theories of science and psychology) rears it's ugly head in the above quote (in red) from the Board's Occasional Letter No. 1, written by Gates. The aim at "social control" was clear and no attempt made to conceal it. They have since modified their approach in public dissemination and hide this viewpoint. The aim of "education" was not intellectual or to make someone the best they could be. The aim is social manipulation and control. That has continued to be the aim of "public education".
Traditional financial conspiracy theories place John D. Rockefeller as a primary scoundrel. It seems while he may have been an intensely greedy and money-hunger fellow, the actual plans and actions to manipulate entire societies were initiated by others who placed themselves close to the Rockefeller holdings which enabled them to use these funds for their own specific interests.
Apparently John D. simply liked making money to the point of obsession. It would be false to say he was the mastermind of international intrigue and deception. But it wouldn't be false to say the Rockefeller MONEY has been used in various ways to forward social and global control through economics, foundations, the United Nations, universities, banking, industry, medicine, and of course, education, psychology and psychiatry.
The Rockefeller money enabled degraded, destructive and false psychological theories to expand and heavily influence many major colleges and universities, the entire educational approach from grade school through college, educational foundations and various major teaching organizations. The same money was later used to support, promote and help expand German medicine in the United States which directly caused the demise of homeopathy, chiropractic and naturopathy. (chapter 8)
It has never been true that there was anything inherently "right", "correct", "scientifically legitimate", "valid" or "beneficial" about the ideas and practices Rockefeller's money supported. The only concern was, did it help Standard Oil's PR and expand profits. Modern psychology, psychiatry, medical approaches such as surgery and drugs, cancer treatments, and educational methods largely exist because there was an almost unlimited amount of money to support their promotion and expansion. Their existence today has VERY LITTLE to do with truth, legitimate "science", any actual inherent validity or effectiveness to the theories and methods involved. This is sad, but very true.
It is not incorrect to say that a major segment of today's modern institutions exist, NOT because of honest study and concern for the truth in the respective fields, but because Rockefeller's money was available at their inception to fund incredible PR campaigns, establish "professional" publications and societies, steam roller over any competition (regardless of their legitimacy or value), and continue selling the ideas until accepted and institutionalized within the basic fabric of society. This is the true origin of most of modern medicine, psychology, psychiatry, sociology, banking, education, educational research foundations, politics, political research foundations, and on and on. Scary, huh?
Welcome to the 21st century!
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www.crossroad.to/Quotes/brainwashing/rockefeller-mind-control.htm
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Posted by amanfromMars on 08/29/11 10:33 PM
"The point being made is a profound one; what is being visited on the Middle East will not long be confined to that area. What is being done there will soon be visited on the West itself. There is no use fooling one's self about this." ... .. Daily Bell After Thought
Quite so, and that was a wonderful tale, DB, and far better than anything thought real and currently presented and certainly surely worthy of Langley and Fort Meade attention and jointed Hashshashin development, for it has cosmic majic potential in deed, indeed. In fact, a great game changer no less, for the West should they have GNOME SMARTs for the Live Operational Virtual Environments of Reality.
The danger of fooling oneself is that one ends up being a fool fooling others, but who are not fools and who have much smarter tools ... ...
[blockquote] Sounds like New America's Brian Fishman is an Al Qaeda operative and certain fanatic of dumb war games against smarter enemies with better beta and virtual communications systems.
Grow up, Brian, there's a good chap, things have moved on and you are compromising home fields and threatening to expose US credibility to global ridicule and catastrophic base meme deconstruct.
Click to view link [/blockquote]
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Posted by Summer on 08/29/11 04:44 PM
Well, you've proved my point. Your posture towards the prophesised Messianic Islamic movement - Ahmadiyya Islam - is identical to that of the Jews towards Jesus.
You seem to hold some major contradictions with the Holy Prophet - he gave the definitive definition of a Muslim - *Anyone* who believes/declares the Kalima. He said anyone who declares someone who claims to be a Muslim a non-Muslim is himself a non-Muslim. God is the sole arbiter in matters of conscience.
The term 'Seal of the Prophets' (Khataman: seal. Nabeeyeen: Prophets) means the pinnacle of prophet-hood. The word Khatam is used by the Prophet Muhammad to describe Ali (the fourth Caliph) as: *Khatamul* Aulia (meaning the *best*/pinnacle of those who are God's friends - not the last).
Ayesha the noble wife of the Prophet said: 'Say he is the Seal of the Prophets but do not say that there is no prophet after him' (Takmala Majmaul Bihar, p. 88) - meaning after him prophets must come under his dispensation, being subordinate to the Quran. Furthermore, if "the seal of the prophets" (Khataman Nabeeyeen) meant that there would be no more prophets then how could the Holy Prophet *himself* prophesise that a Messiah and Mahdi would come after him, in the latter days?
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Posted by David_Robertson on 08/29/11 03:57 PM
There are other books that are worth reading Frank. I have read "From Time Immemorial" and at one time I bought into the Israel story line which this book follows. However i have done extensive reading on the subject since then and I have changed my view of the book and the situation in Israel.
Two books I would recommend to you to balance the equation would be "Israeli Exceptionalism: The Destabilizing Logic of Zionism" by M.Shahid Alam Click to view link and "Cross of Bethlehem" by Ro'i Tov Click to view link
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Posted by Summer on 08/29/11 03:53 PM
The Quran has done the Bible a great service by making evident those portions of the Bible that are 'original' and those that are later interpolations (see the case of the very early copy of the Bible found under a monastery that had whole portions of Matthew missing - demonstrating that they were added later to give weight to the erroneous concepts of trinity and the sonship of Jesus).
The Quran makes clear that portions of the Bible attributing sin to prophets are interpolation and an affront to God's true messengers' memories. Islam gives all prophets great status, as ones who never committed any 'wrong' (sin is *intentional* wrongdoing). The Quran it does not need to denegrate other prophets in order to lend weight to the excellence of Islam. Unfortunately, some need to deride faiths of others in order to try to elevate their own?
Your vile accusations about the Holy Prophet Muhammad are absolutely false. I re-iterate: why must people denigrate prophets in order to gain satisfaction in their own beliefs?! It is high time for Westerners to read Islam from scholarly Islamic perspectives rather than from elite-sponsored pseudo-Christians, Orientalists (sponsored by colonialist powers with an interest to deride those whom they wished to command over), or many other elite funded corrupters; the time is now - internet!
If I were to read about Jesus and Christianity from their worst enemies should I find a true picture? Certainly not.
An accurate study of the truth of Islamic history (not from Western Orientalists) is here:
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Muhammad did not spread 'Islam by the sword', although this a thoroughly embedded cliché/meme in the minds of Westerners. Later, after the Rashidin Caliphate, the Islamic Empire did have political conquests, even then the majority of converts were voluntary; as Islam was seen as a symbol of advancement, morality and a progressive and sophisticated mode of living.
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Posted by Frank on 08/29/11 11:16 AM
Thank you for the extended comments.
Yes, I (and another) were off the mark on Stockholm Syndrome: "In psychology, Stockholm syndrome is a term used to describe a real paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them." Yet I suspect the stress of the captivity had an effect (more by fellow captives, not by the captors).
As for the historic relationships between Islam & other non-believers in Islamic nations, I would encourage others to read books such as "From Time Immemorial" which quotes original source historical records regarding the treatment of unbelievers in those areas all the way from the onset of Islam down to the present. There is a reason for that treatment.
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Posted by EntropyAnn on 08/29/11 10:36 AM
It's certainly nice to see that our confounded gnome has returned mostly unharmed to us, given the gravity of the situation he found himself in. I'd be interested in seeing a time table on when these sorts of things are likely to find themselves added to the back-drop of life in the United States. While it's best that freedom minded people that want to avoid the dragnet get out sooner rather than later, some idea of how quickly things will proceed in the months and years to come would be of benefit to many that read this site while still retaining a healthy bit of skepticism.
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